‘I’m already in trouble!’ – KZN Hawks head denies evading questions at Madlanga commission

It was yet another tough day for KwaZulu-Natal (KZN) Hawks head Lesetja Senona, who returned to the Madlanga Commission for more cross-examination on Thursday.

The session started with a back-and-forth between Senona’s legal team and the evidence leader, Advocate Adila Hassim, as they insisted that he had not been sent some of the material he was being questioned on.

A decision was eventually reached to continue proceedings.

On Wednesday, Senona denied assisting Vusimuzi ‘Cat’ Matlala with his Saps contract challenges, arguing he only provided “moral support” when the tenderpreneur met with KZN police commissioner Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi.

Senona ‘assisted Matlala’

On Thursday, Hassim argued that WhatsApp texts between Matlala and Senona showed he provided more than moral support to the tendepreneur.

“With these texts, we’ve already shown how you provided assistance on 15 April. We’ve already discussed, and we don’t need to go there again, your response on 13 May, advising and more than advising, urging him to take them on and to sue the Saps in relation to his contract,” said Hassim.

“Now, I’m taking you to this particular text where he says, ‘Please don’t forget to ask our brother about that lady who’s stirring problems’. Your response to him is not, what are you talking about? Your response to him is a thumbs-up.

“It suggests agreement that you will follow up. Isn’t that so?”

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Senona said his thumbs-up response should be interpreted as him ‘noting’ the text, but insisted it did not mean he was sure of the lady’s identity. He was, however, able to “assume” the lady in question was Lieutenant General Lineo Nkhuoa.

“It was a common cause to me when we were talking about the issue of the payment in terms of the contract, that this contract is related to Medicare. The only person dealing with this is the divisional commissioner, HR. And the divisional commissioner is Lieutenant General Nkhuoa,” explained Senona.

“I assumed, because I have knowledge that this type of function, of this nature, they form within that space.”

Who is ‘our brother’?

Proceedings turned tense after Senona insisted he had forgotten who the ‘brother’ being referred to in the same text was.

“This one is giving me a problem. I am trying to establish, even before I deposit my statement, I tried to look, by the way, at ‘our brother’,” explained Senona.

“You see, most people talk about our brother, our brother, and then he doesn’t put names. That is why I am having a problem with the recollection of these names.

“I’m trying to assume as well, but it doesn’t ring a bell to my recollection, commissioner.”

However, Commissioner Sesi Baloyi rejected the argument.

“No, general. This WhatsApp message is from 14 April. You are going to meet, and you know at that point you are going to meet General Mkhwanazi on the 15th,” said Baloyi.

“You did make an assumption and say, I made an assumption that he’s referring to General Nkhuoa and you could not have made that assumption in a vacuum. It was because there was a context to it.

“I’m saying you must then have assumed something about the brother that he’s referring to. Who is the brother you assumed he’s referring to?”

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Senona said he could not remember.

“I’m trying to do my recollection, commissioners, as we are here, and I did before. It is an unfortunate situation. These types of things, sometimes it is important to engage with the person who sent it. Because at this stage, I am trying to recollect and talk about what Mr Matlala has sent to me,” he said.

“But I’m trying my level best to try and think who the brother was, who was he referring to? I’m trying to think to assist the commission.”

KZN Hawks head accused of being evasive

Commissioner Advocate Sandile Khumalo told Senona that he was leaving him with the impression that he was evasive.

“You choose not to answer questions that you fear might get you into trouble. Because there is no way somebody can say to you, don’t forget. It’s a reminder, which means you must have discussed this in the past.

“When he reminds you, you don’t say, what are you talking about? I’m confused. You give him a thumbs-up as if to say, ‘Yes, I will not forget’.

“So when you say, you assume, you can’t remember, it gives me the impression that you either don’t want to tell us, or you are deliberately being evasive. This is not 15 years ago.”

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Senona said he was not evading the question out of fear of trouble, as he was already in trouble. The Hawks head is one of the officials the commission has referred for further investigation in its interim report.

“Commissioners, I am not evasive. The issue that I’m afraid I’ll be in trouble, I am already in trouble. I indicated to your good selves, commissioners, that with this commission document, I am already in trouble. So I can’t fear to disclose what I recall, and being afraid that there will be trouble. I am already in trouble,” said Senona.

“So at the end of the day, commissioners, I see from time to time if I can’t recall something, I’m told I’m evasive, I’m told I’m lying, and I don’t want to respond to these words that I’m told about, but I’m not a person who will come here and mislead the commission.”

Mkhwanazi ‘is our brother’

Baloyi cut to the chase and told Senona that the brother being referred to was Mkhwanazi.

“You are talking to General Mkhwanazi about this meeting. Mr Matlala says to you, speak about the lady who’s causing trouble. You say you assume it’s General Nkhuoa. I want to put it higher than that and say, you know, he’s referring to General Nkhuoa. It’s not an assumption.

“And then the brother there, you know who that brother is. Otherwise, you would not have noted, you would have said, who is the brother you are talking about, if you didn’t know.

“You say, ‘I took the oath, I said I was going to tell the truth, and I’m trying my best to assist’. You must accept that when you say, ‘I don’t remember,’ it’s of no assistance to the commission at all. And maybe it’s worth mentioning that you’re actually here under subpoena. You didn’t volunteer to come and assist us. You were subpoenaed to be here. And you’re sitting there behaving like someone who’s just discharging the obligation of coming here under subpoena.

“You’re not going to tell us anything. You do know what this was about. You simply choose not to tell us what you know this WhatsApp message was about. I share Commissioner Khumalo’s view that you’re not being of assistance to us. And it’s a deliberate decision that you have made.”

Senona said the ‘brother’ couldn’t have been Mkhwanazi, as he did not believe Matlala and Mkhwanazi had a close relationship.

“I don’t think he will refer to General Mkhwanazi as a brother. According to me, they never knew each other. They never met before, according to me. He won’t call him a brother.”

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